Conference with Craig Chamberlain, 18 March 1987 Craig wrote the original (and widely popular) SID Editor and SIDPlayer utilities for creating music on the 64. The COnference was held on the CBMART Forum on CompuServe. sysop steve: Since it is going on 10:10 EST, let's get this thing on the road, so to speak. Tonight's is a special CO, an informal/formal chat with... Craig Chamberlain... author of SIDPLAYER and the new Enhanced SIDPLAYER... now playing at a bookstore or newsstand or forum sig near you... Since we're a rather intimate number to start off with... let's get right into it, using the old "!"/"?" protocol, eh?... who's first? 10:11:16 PM EST Wednesday, March 18, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 57 71310,153 QAM 18 Kerry Person 83 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 132 71470,1342 LOM 18 bill ward 133 73317,3074 FYN 18 vincent bonina 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake vincent bonina: ? sysop steve: go ahead Vince. vincent bonina: Craig, does the new Sid version allow you to give jiffies a decimal value? craig: no, it doesn't let you do that, but it lets you accomplish something similar, it lets you change the length of a jiffy for better tempo control, but it is not given as a decimal number the new JIF command is the one that lets you do that... you can now play any duration at any tempo. ga sysop steve: follow up, Vince? vincent bonina: Thats what I was sooking for... I mean looking for, The old version... seemed to limit me in all the tempos I wanted to use. craig: yes, it was a definite limitation. Actually, Steve, I have a couple opening comments, if Vince is done with his question... ok? vincent bonina: yes sysop steve: "shoot," he said. ga craig: "thud" okay, first of all, there are some new SIDNEWS files to be posted here soon, #7 tells all about the new Sidplayer book and disk, describing all of the improvements and new features, where to order, basically all the common questions people have been asking #8 is a list of typo's and other mistakes that have been found so far #9 tells how to use the new WPLMAKER utility... you may have seen the .SAL files, which are self-dissolving files for... Singalong songs... they dissolve into .MUS and .WDS files... a great convenience for downloading... well, there are also .PIL files for music and picture libraries, and now there are .WPL files for music, words, and pictures... the SIDPIC v2.5 player, and the new Enhanced Player, can accommodate songs with both words and pictures... anyways, the WPLMAKER utility can be used to create .SAL, .PIL, or .WPL files, complete information about these file types and using WPLMAKER in SIDNEWS #9 SIDNEWS #10 is forthcoming, it will have details about the... Sidplayer Get-Together! Mark your calendar! ... There is going to be a meeting of all the "names" in Sidplayer that we can get together, people from all over planning to attend, it is being held in Columbus, Ohio on June 27th, 10AM to 6PM, it is basically a social event but there will be individual presentations, and seminars... people planning to attend include: John Mackey, Brian Szepatowski, Stan Halaby, Brian Copeland, Bobbye, many others from Q-link, and myself, watch for SIDNEWS #10 for full information on it... and finally, I keep getting complaints from people that they can't find the new book... in local bookstores... well, I really have nothing to do with, no control over, the distribution... it seems that even some book distributors are having trouble getting it, so I would say, if it hasn't showed up at your local store, and you are waiting for it, you will have to place an order for it, it is not going to show up automatically. You can either place a special order at a bookstore, or order direct from the publisher. If you place the order at a bookstore, be sure to specify the correct title... many people have asked just for "The Enhanced Sidplayer" and the bookstores don't know what that is... full title is: "COMPUTE!'s Music System for the Commodore 128 and 64: The Enhanced Sidplayer" (notice that 128 comes first) ISBN number for ordering is 0-87455-074-2 or if you need COMPUTE!'s order number or address, just ask that does it, whew! ga sysop steve: Wellllll...... craig: now you should be all brought up to date (smile) sysop steve: that's a lot of info for us all... anybody have any questions or comments? 10:26:45 PM EST Wednesday, March 18, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 52 72060,475 SEA 18 Richard Zitzmann 83 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 133 73317,3074 FYN 18 vincent bonina 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake Sysop/Betty: ? sysop steve: Richard, ga Richard Zitzmann: my son wants to know (he is 8 years old) if BlackSheep.pic will work on the program craig: Blacksheep.PIC, which is one of the demo files from the new book/disk, will work with the new Enhanced Player, or with SIDPIC V2.5 ga sysop steve: Thanks, Betty, your turn. Sysop/Betty: OK... I have a comment and a question. Comment first to add to Craig's information... I have contacted B. Dalton's Corporate Headquarters for Computer Books... in Minneapolis and they have told me that any B. Dalton store can order... Craig's new book for you. Also B. Dalton's also have B. Dalton Software, etc. which handles software, so you might check those special stores first.... Now my question... I didn't check my disk, is WPLMAKER on it? ga sysop steve: Craig? craig: no, WPLMAKER will also be posted here, by Steve, tonight or tomorrow, sysop steve: yes I have craig: I believe that Steve should find it on the disk I mailed to him... about B. Dalton's, I was just saying that some people have tried to order the book through such stores, but have been told that the store has no info on it, I suspect that it is because the book is not listed under the... vincent bonina: ? craig: name "Enhanced Sidplayer" which is probably what people are asking for... but also, I have heard complaints from distributors themselves, Richard Zitzmann: video jig? craig: saying they can't get the book, so I don't know what the problem is. ga sysop steve: Vince, you're up. Sysop/Betty: The exact name or ISBN would be important. Thank you Craig. vincent bonina: Craig, don't misunderstand me... but why is the book so hard to find?... I'm having the same problems.ga craig: I can think of a few possible reasons... one, there is a glut of computer books, and I bet the stores are... reluctant to order more books when there are several sitting on the shelf, also, the big chain stores are carrying fewer of COMPUTE!'s books... these days... and perhaps, whoever is in charge of ordering at... B. Dalton's or Waldenbooks, etc. has no idea what a Sidplayer is, and so has not ordered many copies of the book... the $24.95 for a book and disk combination may discourage them too... and, they may not be considering it to be a book, but software, for example, it was showing up at the B. Dalton Software places, but not at their bookstores. There may be other reasons, I really don't know why some distributors can't get it, but like I said, that is completely out of my hands, people have come complaining to me about availability, but there's not much I can do about it, sorry. ga sysop steve: My turn... Craig, have you had further talks with COMPUTE! re: A new PD player? craig: there has been no change on their part 10:39:29 PM EST Wednesday, March 18, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 52 72060,475 SEA 18 Richard Zitzmann 68 72737,3214 NYJ 18 RICARDO H. 83 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 133 73317,3074 FYN 18 vincent bonina 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake vincent bonina: ? sysop steve: Ga, Vince vincent bonina: Can I ask a copywrite question? craig: sure, but I am no expert in copyrights (I do not hold the copyright on Sidplayer) vincent bonina: I have written some magazine articles... but I'm afraid to mention some specific software... Do you know if it is ok to mention using your book and editor? ga craig: hmmm... you may have noticed that none of the magazines ever mention... anything about Sidplayer... they'll review all the music systems out, but never is Sidplayer included in those reviews... it has to do with how the other magazines and COMPUTE! get along... now, to answer your question, there are these things called "copy editors" (grin)... who love to change the things you write (grin)... and if you put in something they don't like, it will get cut... if you are afraid that a piece you submit will be rejected, because it mentions something like Sidplayer, well, I wouldn't be too concerned, I don't think they would turn down.. a piece just because of that, although they may want it changed, also, it matters how much mention is made of the piece... if I remember, there was an article that did mention Sidplayer, published in a competing magazine... but if it was a review of Sidplayer, I very much doubt that the piece would be accepted. ga sysop steve: Then again, has a COMPUTE! mag ever done a review of SIDPLAYER? vincent bonina: hale to the editors!! craig: no, they haven't Richard Zitzmann: ? sysop steve: Your question, Richard? craig: but they wouldn't want to "blow their own horn," they'd say, I bet. ga Richard Zitzmann: Steve I wanted to ask a question and... make a comment Will .PIC files work with VIDEO JIGSAW? ga craig: by the way... Peg Herrington was the one who was able to mention Sidplayer sysop steve: I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with Video Jigsaw? What is that? craig: I can comment about .PIC files... Richard Zitzmann: It is a program from Compute! for making a jigsaw from doodle files... ga sysop steve: a jigsaw puzzle? oh... My understanding of at least SIDPIC 2.5 is that it can handle automatically... Richard Zitzmann: My comment is that I was able to get the book... sysop steve: either Koalas or Doodles AS LONG AS it has a '.pic' extension... craig: ! sysop steve: so if the pic file happened to be in Doodle format, I would guess 'yes'... sysop steve: ga Craig. craig: Pictures are very easy to use... Richard Zitzmann: directly from Compute! with no problem ga craig: all you have to do is take any picture in Doodle or Koala pad format, and just rename it to the name of the song with the .PIC extension, and both Sidpic v2.5 and the Enhanced Players on the C128 and C64... know how to tell which kind of file it is... so, if you can get the file into Doodle or Koala format, you can use it with those players. ga p.s. more info about picture files is in Sidnews #9 sysop steve: Richard, I ordered the book directly from COMPUTE! as well... and got it real fast. craig: yes, ordering from Compute! should be the fastest way sysop steve: Other questions? Mr. Willis, you've been rather quiet this evening! Richard Zitzmann: ? Robert Willis: ??? sysop steve: Yes, you! Go ahead, Richard, then Robert if so inclined! 10:54:30 PM EST Wednesday, March 18, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 52 72060,475 SEA 18 Richard Zitzmann 83 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 133 73317,3074 FYN 18 vincent bonina 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake vincent bonina: !! Richard Zitzmann: I am sorry. I forgot what I was going to ask. ga sysop steve: Urk! You're forgiven! Comment, Robert? or was that "???" merely rhetorical? craig: I have a different problem... sometimes forget when to stop talking (grin) Robert Willis: ? sysop steve: Go ahead, Robert. Then Vince. Richard Zitzmann: ? Robert Willis: Will Compute! have any update policy... on subsequent versions of the disk? craig: no, I do not think they will, although, as you will notice in Sidnews #8, there are very few problems with the software, to my knowledge, only one bug in the Editor, and one in the Sid Copier 128, if I do revisions I might offer to do a disk swap with you or something, but I wouldn't expect Compute! to have an update policy, don't really see a need. ga Robert Willis: ok fine ga vincent bonina: me now? sysop steve: Your question Vince? vincent bonina: I'd just like to say... I can't stay any longer, its nice finally talking to you Craig and... my order will go to COMPUTE tomorrow... good night Steve, good night John boy!! craig: Vince... judging from the reactions of everyone else who has purchased the book/disk, you won't be disappointed! (grin) sysop steve: I think you can say that! Nite, Vince! Richard, your question? vincent bonina: I'll let you know if I am. haha craig: heh heh... your only disappointment could be... that if you do songs using the new commands, Richard Zitzmann: How do get copies of SIDNEWS????? ga craig: only those who have also purchased the book will be able... to play them. sysop steve: We already have some of the older SIDNEWS files in DL10 on CBMART... Craig has sent me via USPS the latest three installments and I will be... upping them this evening after the CO so they will be available early tomorrow... morning or later in the day. ok? Richard Zitzmann: How many are there??? ga sysop steve: We have about 5 here; I'll be upping 3 more. craig: numbers 1 to 6 are old and probably not of much interest now, numbers 7 to 9 going up after co. ga Richard Zitzmann: thanks ga sysop steve: You'd be surprised the questions about "Where is sidnews 5 hiding?" we still get... Anymore questions, folks? Well I have a peripheral one... Tell me everything you know about who... craig: I hope everyone can make it to Columbus... (smile) sysop steve: Dr. J aka Roth aka Roth Ladoad is. Great sid-er craig: I wrote a letter to Roth once, he got it but never replied (sigh)... Roth does an excellent job on his pieces, yes... what I heard was that the person who goes by the name of Roth LaDoad is... the brother of Jerry Roth who is Dr. J... but I'm really not sure, and they don't seem to want to clear up the confusion. ga sysop steve: Two independent sid producers, eh? But their/his files are GREAT! Hmmm..anybody got a "?" or a "!"????? craig: um, one other thing is that somehow the name Rexroat ties in with it all Richard Zitzmann: help sysop steve: yes, I've seen that one too Yes, Richard? 11:09:51 PM EST Wednesday, March 18, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 52 72060,475 SEA 18 Richard Zitzmann 83 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake Sysop Jake: ? Richard Zitzmann: nothing ga craig: also, Dr. J does not use sheet music when he enters the songs. He told me that. sysop steve: Unbelievable! Jake? Sysop Jake: Craig, now that you've done three (three?) books and numerous programs... Sysop/Betty: ! Sysop Jake: and a few Sidplayers and loaders and a bunch of songs... what are you working on? A new Sid Editor/player? Something else? ga craig: there are a couple projects I would like to work on regarding Sidplayer, mainly, a utility to print the music out in staff paper form... but otherwise, no, there is not much more to happen with Sidplayer, ((thinking))... sysop steve: (It can be rough, I know!) craig: I need to go where the money is, and that is not Sidplayer... right now, my number one objective is to graduate from college. ga Sysop Jake: ? sysop steve: Definitely do that! Betty, then Jake craig: I have proposed further Sidplayer ideas to COMPUTE! but they were rejected. Sysop/Betty: When you mentioned "does not use sheet music"... Isn't that like "playing by ear"? and if so, if the computer is considered... the instrument along with Sid Editor, why is that so strange? ga sysop steve: Have you ever tried using SidEditor without music? Especially the original version? craig: hmmm... a "make me think" question... sysop steve: A backbreaking ordeal! craig: Harry designed the Editor to work from the sheet music... Sysop/Betty: No, Steve, I haven't. A theoretical question. craig: and, many composers write their pieces on staff paper while composing, and need the graphical representation to aid them in the composing... so like Steve says, it would be very hard to enter songs into the original Editor, just by ear. hello Andrew! sysop steve: Really...with the speed of entry of the original... Andrew Brown: hi Craig! sysop steve: I'd have a hard time imagining someone working without sheet music. sysop steve: Howdy, Andrew! Jake, I believe you're up. Sysop/Betty: Thank you both for your comments. Sysop Jake: First a comment about composing by ear... I know someone who does just that. He can sit down with Sid Editor (or one... of the other music editors) and type in a song. He has either memorized the... sheet music or he just has a built-in sense for tempo, melody, and harmony... He does the same with the 128's PLAY command. Now the question:... How do you feel about the future of the 64 and 128? If you should undertake... a big project in the near future, say the next year or two... would you write for the 64/128 or some other computer? ga craig: as you know, there are new releases from Commodore Amiga... and if they are able to do a good C64 emulation on the Amiga, and sell that Amiga 500 for a low enough price... maybe then things would really get moving in that end of the market... but, as for the C64 and C128 segment of the market, personally I wouldn't do much more with them, based on my experience with the reluctance of dealers to carry the new book... plus the fact that piracy has become so commonplace. the C64 is going to stick around and be popular, obviously, I do wonder about the C128. Guess that's all. ga 11:24:57 PM EST Wednesday, March 18, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 83 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 160 75426,3122 SEA 18 Andrew Brown 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake craig: I will add... the C128 is just too expensive, when you can get some 16 bit computers for the same, or lower, price. Wouldn't you agree? sysop steve: So you're saying that the widespread piracy problem has dissuaded you from... Andrew Brown: ? sysop steve: considering doing any more programming for the 128/64? craig: I have to deal with the reality that I must approach it from a ... Sysop Jake: ! craig: monetary standpoint... I don't think there is a whole lot more money left in it, no. ga sysop steve: ok. Andrew, your question/comment? craig: time to move on. Andrew Brown: Let me say, Craig, that your program has awakened a lot of people... To use their 64s for more than WP!... I think if anything is going to carry on the popularity of the 64... craig: or playing games... (grin) Andrew Brown: (and the 128), it's going to be people like you and your programs... (I've ditched all my games!)... now the question... Why are dealers reluctant to carry your new book? It's been quite hard... to find and (thanks to Betty), I have found it... Why the reluctance? I don't quite understand. ga craig: Andrew, this came up earlier this evening, and I suggested a number of reasons for why the problem might exist, I also said that I really have nothing to do, and no control over, the distribution of the book. To date I have no idea of how many have even been sold. Shall we just say, as a blanket rule, Andrew Brown: (I have a small addition) craig: that the book is not readily available from stores, that you need to order it direct from COMPUTE!... regarding those of us who have tried to write good software for the C64... and there are many, such as Chris Smeets who has done ARC... who have gone beyond the call of duty in providing good software... (hopefully people feel that I have done a good job of supporting Sidplayer).. when it ceases to be fun for these people, that's when you get concerned. ga sysop steve: Jake, ga Sysop Jake: I wanted to put in a comment about the 128... I own a 128 with a 512K expander, plus an Atari 1040ST with 1 megabyte of memory. You said something about the inexpensive prices for 16-bit computers. I like my ST a lot, but I'm more comfortable with the 128, because the BASIC is good and I know the machine language for it... I think some 64 owners will avoid the 16-bit machines... Brent Dane: ! Sysop Jake: in favor of the 128, just because it's so much like the 64. What do you think? ga Brent Dane: ! 11:37:04 PM EST Wednesday, March 18, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 59 70366,1316 NAS 18 Steve Nye 83 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 116 71320,333 HOO 18 Brent Dane 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 160 75426,3122 SEA 18 Andrew Brown 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake sysop steve: I know I'm just waiting for the release of the A2000!... craig: The C64 got a lot of people into computing, and I'm sure many of those people don't care or need the greater power, sysop steve: Brent, you're next after Craig finishes. craig: can be quite happy with their C64... it's the good old question: Which computer is best? Answer: Whichever one is best for YOU. ...depends on what you want to do with it... but I still don't see much to encourage people like me... to invest the amount of time it takes to develop really good software... by the way I was also thinking of the Hyundai (sp?) IBM clone... that Sheldon Leemon wrote about in a COMPUTE! Microscope I think... Sysop Jake: Hyundai makes the Blue Chip clone. Andrew Brown: ? craig: I know that a lot of C128's have been sold, it IS a good computer, and if you buy just the computer, not the disk drive, it's a nice move up, but if you're going to sink a lot of money into ... the purchase of a new computer, who knows, it could be that... people using the C64 today could have use for 1 Meg or 4 Meg... if there is an Amiga 500 for a low price that emulates a C64, like I said before, that could be interesting. ga sysop steve: Brent? Brent Dane: Sorry, just disturbed by a misunderstood statement. All clear now. craig: After Brent, I'd like to add one thing. sysop steve: Ok, Craig, then Andrew. craig: okay... I was just thinking that, who knows, perhaps applications of interest to the typical C64 user... will grow to make use of greater RAM, etc... on the other hand, I have now written 3 books on an Atari 800, using a wordprocessor that has only about 16K free. ga (I know how to make do! grin) sysop steve: You wrote the SIDPLAYER book on a (gasp!!!) Atari?? Brent Dane: ! craig: uh huh Sysop Jake: His 64 had to be running Sid Editor. craig: know why? sysop steve: double arg! Andrew, you're up! Sysop Jake: Set the computers side by side. Write on one, program the other. Andrew Brown: (triple arg)... craig: I already owned the Atari, and I could get the printer to work with it, and Jake has it exactly... I could be running the C64 at the same time. ga sysop steve: Andrew? Andrew Brown: Craig, you said... "I still don't see much to encourage people like... ..me to invest the amount of time it takes to develop... ...good software..."...were u referring to the 64 and 128? craig: yes Andrew Brown: ok... I guess I am quite shocked by that statement... I would have ditched my 64 in the alley... if you didn't come out with the sid editor... and I am sure that thousands of people feel that way... Smeets' ARC program and the CAD program by (I don't remember)... Sysop/Betty: Stephen Nye. Andrew Brown: and the Sid editor have brought people out of the wood work...thank you betty... craig: yes... ARC is another good example Andrew Brown: What more would you want? Brent Dane: $$ Andrew Brown: (duh) (I'll send you some!) sysop steve: Finished, Andrew? Andrew Brown: yessir. craig: Well, Andrew, consider all who have bought one version of Sidplayer or another... sysop steve: O-tay! Brent? craig: that accounts for less than 1 percent of all who have purchased a C64. Brent Dane: Someone mentioned something about an amiga with downward compatability with 64/128? sysop steve: I think that was Craig wishfully thinking! craig: for Stephen, it is a great hobby to maintain and develop CAD... I don't know Chris Smeets to know exactly why he has done ARC, he was doing it as Shareware, but he didn't get much from it... let me tell you about the Enhanced Sidplayer project... it took me 4 months... 3 programming, 1 on text... to develop. and those were not 8 hour days, many times 12 to 14 hours a day, and I took only 1 week and 1 weekend off... it really takes a lot of time to do something on the scale of... Enhanced Sidplayer... goodness, but a 35K 100% machine language program... is not done overnight! (grin)... Brent Dane: But, normally not in 4 months, either... craig: and at present, the way it is looking on sales for the new book, I'm not that enthusiastic about writing anything more for the C64 or C128. I won't go into it, but as it turns out, I will probably be losing money on the whole deal. ga Brent Dane: ! sysop steve: But you will have enriched all of our lives... and if you can believe all of that!!!.... Brent? Last question of the evening. craig: Steve... believe all of what? sysop steve: My own snide comment to my own snide comment re: enriching lives... It loses something in the translation over CRT. craig: well, I hope Sidplayer has touched people in a good way, and that is a reward to me, but the issue is that to devote that much time, I need more reward (grin) Brent Dane: But, if I understand correctly, this is a minor reward? Sysop Jake: ! sysop steve: I can appreciate that... and you have all given us something great! craig: Steve... translation: College isn't cheap! (smile) sysop steve: (I know!) Sysop Jake: Starving artists like appreciation, but it doesn't pay for food. craig: remember... I'm not employed... I am spending money, not earning it sysop steve: Brent, which is the minor reward? Brent Dane: Apparently his satisfaction of contribution. 12:00:37 AM EST Thursday, March 19, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 17 75426,3122 SEA 18 Andrew Brown 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 107 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 116 71320,333 HOO 18 Brent Dane 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake Brent Dane: Science would be in trouble with many attitudes like his... sysop steve: Craig. Comment on Brent's comments? craig: interesting comments Brent Dane: bye. craig: hold on Brent I was thinking of a response... Brent Dane: hello? craig: you going to stick around? Brent Dane: Short time. Time is money... (someone said) Andrew Brown: ? craig: okay, well tell me, Brent, at what point should I decide that... sysop steve: Speaking of 'time,'... (My moderator side talking now!)... It's past 12 EST so the formal CO is over... craig: the reward from the "enrichment" is more important than the monetary compensation? Brent Dane: In pure research, it must be. sysop steve: Hmmm... craig: Okay, but even in pure science, you have things like grants... Sysop Jake: But most scientists who do pure research have grants, teaching jobs, or are independently wealthy. craig: so the scientists can at least make a living, you know... for my four months of work, Andrew Brown: I must say, Craig, I am quite disappointed in your attitude. craig: how much do you think it would be fair for me to earn? Sysop Jake: For Craig, writing Sid Editor and the documentation is his job. sysop steve: (Obviously, the CO isn't really over, is it?!?!) Sysop Jake: It's not a hobby. Not done for appreciation and gratitude. sysop steve: Craig is speaking from the experience of having written 3 books... Andrew Brown: OH? How much do you want, Craig? I'll gladly send it to you! sysop steve: if not he, who is in a position to say "Where's my stipend for all this work?" craig: Andrew... it is the continued support of Sidplayer... that I feel has been beyond the call of duty, that has been like a contribution to the Commodore community... the players and all... but during those 4 months I could have made money or gone to school. craig: If I get a reasonable return for my efforts, everybody is happy... Andrew Brown: (during those 4 months you made a lot of people change their lives!) craig: but when it becomes like a martyr situation, well... sorry! one can't survive very long that way sysop steve: Closing comments, anyone? Sysop Jake: ! sysop steve: Yes? Sysop Jake: If a personnel director came to me and said... "You've been working here for four months... and we really appreciate your spending 8 hours a day at your desk... but we can't pay you. We just can't. But we really appreciate your work. Sorry, I apologize." Brent Dane: I over reacted to an attitude, not a situation. Good night! Sysop Jake: Then I would quit my job. ga craig: g'nite Brent Sysop/Betty: Craig... Brent Dane: ! Sysop/Betty: I want to thank your for being our CBMART Guest tonight... We appreciate it and there will be a transcript soon. sysop steve: That's what I was gonna say! Sysop/Betty: Best wishes for the success of your Enhanced Sidplayer book. Sysop Jake: The transcript might even be ready tonight. Sysop/Betty: Thanks again from all of us. ga Oh, sorry, Steve. Andrew Brown: I am leaving C-serve quite unhappy... just what I didn't want to do...BYE! sysop steve: Yes, thanks Craig! sysop steve: Andrew! Don't run off just yet! 12:12:39 AM EST Thursday, March 19, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 17 75426,3122 SEA 18 Andrew Brown 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 sysop steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 53 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 71 73367,11 YUM 18 mark williams 116 71320,333 HOO 18 Brent Dane 126 73266,1573 BNC 18 Robert Willis 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake Sysop/Betty: Oh, Andrew, take care and see you in the Fall, I hope. sysop steve: Yeah, take it easy at whatever it is you're gonna be doing! You're still not going to tell us what it is? Guess not, he's gone craig: Brent, you had a comment? okay, Robert! Brent Dane: Mostly an apology. craig: Brent... it's just the reality of the situation, that I have to look out for myself, of course. The impression I get is that people would have me... Robert Willis: Steve - NO MORE LATIN! craig: writing software all the time for little pay. Brent Dane: I think that we were simply reacting to a not so subtle attitude that... steve: Quid pro quo? Who started it anyway??? craig: If I had a job or something, it would be different, but this is my income. Brent Dane: Commodore users just aren't paying the bill and therefore do not deserve Robert Willis: yea right! bye. steve: Nite, Robert! Take it easy! Sysop Jake: Semper ubi sub ubi. Brent Dane: to have good software available to them. Of course programmers should be... steve: I always do! 12: 16: 56 AM EST Thursday, March 19, 1987 Job User ID Nod Chn Handle/Program --- ------------ --- --- ---------------- 30 76703,4244 DTZ 18 steve 36 72240,114 ANN 18 craig 53 76703,4037 SEA 18 Sysop/Betty 71 73367,11 YUM 18 mark williams 116 71320,333 HOO 18 Brent Dane 166 76703,3051 GNC 18 Sysop Jake Brent Dane: compensated and paid well! That's coming from someone who has done much "programming for profit" himself. However, let's face it. Why do most people work on a 64/128? Monetary situations dictate it. Therefore, when... you state that it just doesn't pay to develop cbm software, you hit a soft spot with a lot of 64 users. Please excuse any trouble my "thoughtless" comments have upturned. Thanks for an interesting evening. craig: may I point out... that most of the commercial developers are not doing much with the C64, (never really did all that much for the C128 in the first place)... and the problem I am facing is one of... the distributors not even wanting to carry the product... so if those in charge of marketing have decided... not to have that much more to do with the C64 market... well, that leaves me in the position I am in, without much incentive to do any further work. and piracy is a problem. ga --- And, with that, the evening COnference with Craig Chamberlain ended. Jake Lund, Sysop.