===========================================================================
 BBS: da Bird's Nest
Date: 00-00-80 (00:00)             Number: 180
From: WILLIAM JAMES CUFFE          Refer#: NONE
  To: BOB LAWLER                    Recvd: NO  
Subj: Re: Guinan in Yesterday's      Conf: (8) Trek NG (F
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 -=> Quoting Bob Lawler to William James Cuffe <=-

 BL> First of all, you have comepletely contridicted yourself at least
 BL> twice in this paragraph.

        I illustrated a paradox.  Of course I did!  You do understand
what a paradox is, don't you???  It's a contradiction!

 BL> And I do understand some of the ideas of pardoxes in time travel, do you?

        Yes, but unlike you, I am willing to listen to someone when they
talk about an aspect of it that I have yet encountered.  Are you?

 BL> But, honestly, I cannot remember
 BL> this "Temporal Knot Theorem" from my readings.

        Then read this post, and remember one fact -- neither you nor I
have read everything on the subject -- a theorhetical subject.

 BL> Also, rewatch the episode.  You'll see that when the E-C appears, it
 BL> is directly in the war timeline.  And what do you mean about "the
 BL> E-C's appearence in the peace timeline's future."?  The rift appeared
 BL> in the normal (peace) timeline's PRESENT, they detected SOMETHING.

        Gee, I wonder what it was...  Was it, perhaps, the
Enterprise-C???  Yes, it was.  The fact that they were able to detect it
shows it was in the peace timeline's PRESENT, and THEN the alternate
timeline appeared.  If it was the E-C's trip through time that changed
history, then we wouldn't have had a scene where Worf could detect
anything, as the ship would have appeared directly into the war
timeline.

 BL> A ship (E-C) came through, and when it did, we were seeing the WAR
 BL> ALTERNATE TIMELINE.

        Yes, the E-C's appearence IN THE FUTURE made the change.  At the
moment it fully appeared in THE FUTURE, the war timeline was made.  If
it had just been it's absence in the past, then there would be no scene
of Worf detecting something, but one of Yar detecting something.  The
E-D would be totally ignorant of anything happening in relation to the
rift in time.

      ÚÄ
      ³
      ³
ÍÍÍÍÍ *
* The Romulan Attack on Narendra III.  The Enterprise 1701-C, Ambassador
Class starship, captained by Rachel Garrett and Lt. Richard Castillo,
responds to a distress signal from a Klingon outpost on Narendra III,
pleading for help against a Romulan sneak attack.  The Enterprise-C responds,
and protects the outpost.  During the insuing battle (where only 125 out of
the 700 crewmembers survive), a rift in time is formed, and the E-C falls
through, beginning a trip through time.

      ÚÄÄÄÄÄ
      ³
      ³
ÍÍÍÍÍ + ÍÍÍ *

* The Death of Lt. Natasha "Tasha" Yar.  Stardate 41775.5:  In an attempt to
rescue Counselor Lt. Cmdr. Deanna Troi from a crashed shuttlecraft, an Away
Team with Yar as a member beams down to Veigra II and encounters a marooned
entity called Armus, who soon afterward suddenly and maliciously kills Yar.

      ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
      ³           ³
      ³           ³
ÍÍÍÍÍ + ÍÍÍ + ÍÍÍ *

* The Return of Yesterday's Enterprise.  Stardate 43625.2:  The Enterprise-C
completes its 22 year, 3 month, and 4 day trip through time.  Up to this
time, history told us that it was due to the E-C's intervention at Narendra
III that enabled peace, and finally an alliance, between the United
Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire.

      ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
      ³           ³
      ³           ³
ÍÍÍÍÍ +           +
      º           ³
      º           ³
      ÈÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ *

* The After Effects of Yesterday's Enterprise.  Stardate 43625.20001:  With
the appearence of the Enterprise-C in the future, history is instantly
retroactively rewritten, and history as shown in the series is erased.
Since the E-C was not there to finish the battle over Narendra III, the
Romulans won and obliterated the colony.  Without the successful intervention
of the E-C, no peace was achieved with the Klingon Empire.  Instead, blame
was placed on the United Federation of Planets, eventually causing the
Federation and Klingon Empire to go to war, with the Federation losing.
In this new, alternate timeline, the Enterprise-D is a battleship, never
encountered Armus, and Yar is still alive.

      ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
      ³           ³
      ³           ³
ÍÍÍÍÍ +           +
      º           ³
      º           ³
      ÈÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ + ÍÍÍÍ *

* The Return Trip of Yesterday's Enterprise.  Stardate 43629.9:  The
decission is made to return the Enterprise-C through the fading temporal rift
to it's proper time in an attempt to repair what they believe, through
Guinan's vague sensing of unease with the current timeline, is an error in
history.  Aboard the E-C is the Tasha Yar from the new timeline, deciding she
would prefer to die a purposeful death, instead of the purposeless one Guinan
had alluded happened to the Yar in the original timeline.  The E-D is
suddenly attacked as the E-C begins to enter the time rift.  The E-C is hit,
and Captain Rachel Garret is killed, where upon Lt. Richard Castillo takes
command and returns the ship to it's rightful time.

      ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
      ³           ³
      ³           ³
ÍÍÍÍÍ + ÍÍÍ + ÍÍÍ +* ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ>
     ³º           ³
     ³º           ³
     ³ÈÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ + ÍÍÍÍ +
     ³                   ³
     ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ

* The Re-Rewritting of History.  Stardate 43625.00002:  With the Enterprise-
C's return to the battle over Narendra III 22+ years in the past, history
reverts back to that which was told by the series, resuming at almost the
exact moment that it stopped.  EXCEPT:  The Tasha Yar from the "Federation/
Klingon War" timeline is now in the original timeline, with the Federation
and Klingon Empire as allies, on board the E-C, which once again completes
it's rescue mission and is consequently lost.  If she had survived Narendra
III, or gave birth to a child whom did, then there could very well be another
Yar in the "Alliance" timeline.

     This is an example of the Temporal Knot Theorum.  One would
assume that, since the Enterprise-C saved Narendra III, the
alternate timeline could not have happened, and there would be no
alternative Yar to go back in time with the E-C.  Seemingly, this
is a paradox.  But the Temporal Knot Theorum explains it as thus:
Time has a tendency to heal itself.  In a case of a paradox in
history, time will rewrite itself in such a way that the paradox is
explained.  With the absence of the E-C, time rewrote itself into
the "Federation/Klingon War" timeline, providing circumstances that
would return the derailed history as close to the original as
possible.  In the original timeline, there was NO Tasha Yar at
Narendra III.  The closest way for time to reconstruct what should
have been, was to created the alternate timeline in which Tasha Yar
lived, and use her to get history on track again, creating the new
timeline.  So, the new timeline is almost exactly like that of the
orignal timeline, except that there were TWO Tasha Yars in it's
history, and both where the same person.  The series as presented
from the end of "Yesterday's Enterprise" onward is not the orignal
timeline, but as close as time could reconcile with itself.  The
"universe" doesn't care which is which, it must only react and flow
around the existing sets of cause and effect to fulfill the vacuum
left by the erasure of the original timeline, and eradicate the
paradox of the E-C appearing in the original timeline's future.

     There might be a problem to the reader in the way that the
timelines are worded, as if there is a "right" and "wrong" and some
kind of "force" controlling it...
     "Right" should be read to mean the way the timeline followed
in the series up to the point of "Yesterday's Enterprise", and
"wrong" to mean the Klingon/Federation War timeline.  The "force"
controlling it refers to the nature of time.  Just as space abhors
a vaccum, time abhors alteration of the natural flow to time.
Space rushes in to fill and correct the vacuum. In this case, time
fills the vacuum (the erasure of the orginal timeline) with another
history (The Klingon/Federation War timeline) and corrects (The
alternate Yar on board the E-C) the natural flow.
     Logically, one would think that if the E-C had decided to
remain in the alternate timeline, then that new timeline woul have
likely become permanent.  But it couldn't, since we have seen the
history after Narendra III.  If the Enterprise-C had decided to
never return to its proper time, then the original timeline could
never have happened.  But we know it did, because the Enterprise-C
did return.  It is a debateable case of the E-C being FATED to
return.  The original timeline had to happen, because it was shown
to have.  That is the natural flow of history, the "right"
timeline.  The E-C was fated to go back because it appeared in the
orignal timeline's future.  The original must exist for this to
happen.  Therefore, the E-C HAD to return, otherwise, a paradox
forms that couldn't exists.

     An important point to be stressed at this time is that the E-C
appeared in the original timeline for a split second, then the
timeline changed.  History was not changed until the E-C appered in
the future of the orginal timeline.  It was not the trip through
time that changed, but it's appearence in it's own future.  IF
history had been changed by the E-C's trip through time, then the
future they finally ended up in would have been the war timeline.
But time did not change until the E-C appeared in the original time
line, which means the history showed DID happen, and is how history
shoud have happened in the new timeline.
        If it was just the E-C's departure from Narendra III that
caused the alternate timeline, then they would have just jumped
directly into the alternate.  Instead, the E-C appears in ours.
Furthermore, if the alternate timeline was automatically created,
then Guinan would have no sense that time was "wrong", as she put
it.  There would have been no future to instinctually compare it
to.  It was Guinan's instinctual comparison that led them to
discover that they were an alternate timeline.  Without that hint,
they would not have come to the conclusion to return the E-C, and
of special importance, Yar would not have decided to join it.  It
was because the original timeline existed, and Guinan's detection
of it, that Yar ended up going back on the E-C, which is the
important point we are proving.  If the E-C's trip caused the
timeline change, then there would have been no future history for
Guinan to sense, and no reason for Yar to return, for it would have
appeared full blown into the Klingon/Federation War timeline.  But
that is not what was shown in "Yesterday's Enterprise".  It was the
E-C's appearence in it's own future that cause the change in
history.  If it wasn't so, then it would have showed up
automatically in the alternate history.  The original must exist
for Guinan to sense the difference, and to give Yar her reason to
return on the E-C.

     We the viewer see things from the ultimate position of a "god
of gods", and supposedly if the E-C had never returned then the
"original" timeline would seen to have been permanently supplanted
just as easily as the "war" timeline was dissolved by the E-C's
return.  But since the E-C did appear in it's own future, although
briefly, that future must exist.  If the alternate timeline had
remained, then the original history never happened.  But it must,
since the E-C appeared in it, which created the alternate timeline
in the first place.  With out the original timeline's existance,
the alternate cannot exist, for it was the E-C's appearence in the
orignal that created the alternate...

      Let's use the most clich‚ example of time travel to illustrate this
point.  Adolf Hitler falls through a time vortex and ends up on board the
Enterprise-D in the original timeline (the timeline which the series has
shown up to the point of "Yesterday's Enterprise"), in the stead of the
Enterprise-C.  Without him in the past, to fulfill his "destiny" and ravage
Europe, history changes.  The orginal history must be restored, since the
new history cannot exist without Hitler's appearence in the original
timeline's future.  It was his appearence in the future that was the catalyst
for change, not the trip through time itself.  It would not be his ABSENCE
from the past and the removal of a significant amount of causality that
would be the catalyst for changing the future, but the fact that he appeared
in a future that was dependent on events he has not yet accomplished.

Circumstance has to return him to his original time in the original timeline,
so that it's history can progress normally to the point when Hitler appears
on the E-D, which is the catalyst for the creation of the new history.
Hence, the "knot" analogy.  Hilter's "looping" through time causes a knot
in the timeline with the erasure of the original timeline, preventing time
from progressing.  A temporal vaccum.  Just as nature abhors a vacuum, so
does time, which rushes in to fill the vacuum left by the disappearing
timeline -- a timeline that must exist for the new timeline to be created.
It fills it by sending Hitler back to Germany in the 1940's.  The only way
the intelligent being from the alternate timeline would know to send Hitler
back would be if that being knew that he should be sent back.  The only way
they would know that would be if they had knoledge of the original timeline,
in which Hitler played out his part.  In the alternate timeline, Hilter never
finished his work, so the current timeline would have no idea of the final
extent of his reign.  If it was Hitler's time trip that changed history,
then the original history based on his finished exploits would not have
happened, and the knowledgeable time traveler would have no idea of how the
original history was supposed to have gone.  Without that knowledge, they
could not make the decision to return Hitler based on any information.  He
has to go back, because without his influence in the past, the original
timeline E-D cannot exist.  But it must exist for Hitler to appear on it
and create the new timeline.

Everything that happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise" HAD to
happen, which is what is meant by time writting itself in such a
way that the E-C had no choice to but to go back.  Quite confusing,
isn't it???  ;)

     It was HUMAN intelligence and intervention that led to the
restoration of the timeline that was preferable to THEM, not some
unseen entity.  Unquestionably so.  But thier actions where made
because the new timeline favored those reactions.  They made those
decissions because, inevitably, they would have.  They were
fate's/destiny's tools.  The timeline was written in such a way
that the inevitable conclusion would be to send the E-C back.  They
made the choice of free will, but thier history was written so that
they would make that choice.  Thier circumstances lead them to the
choice, but they made the choice themselves.  Time did not force
them into the decission, against thier wishes.  Instead, through
thier past experience, time provided experiences that would support
the choice to send the E-C back.
     Fate and free will seem to be like a mutually exclusive set of
concepts.  Either we live in a natural, random universe- or there
is some force called "fate" directing are every move.
     On the surface, yes, this seems true.
     Choose A or B.  A keeps history as was shown in the alternate
history, B restores the original history.  In one timeline, you
choose A.  In another you choose B.  Free choice.  But if the
history that was rewritten as the alternate history was the one
that you chose B, you would be fated to chose B, but it would also
be from your own freedom of choice.  The alternate timeline written
was one that they chose to send back the E-C.  The history written
was one that they freely chose to send the E-C back.  There is not
entity known as Fate.  Perhaps, instead of saying "written", I
should say "progressed".  Just as air progresses to eradicate a
vacuum, time progresses to eradicate its causualty.  But where
space does so directly, time does it circumventially.

     Also, it was only a random series of events that even caused
the E-C to deviate from their "original" path...  But without it's
appearence in it's own future, as shown, the alternate timeline
would never have exsisted.

        Finally, I would like to say this: You have repeatedly accussed
me of not knowing what I am talking about.  You raised a stink about a
comment I made reguarding chronic migraine sufferers.  I would like to
point out that I received a congratulatory message for Tori Person for my
statements and insight, who is herself a chronic pain sufferer.  You
accused me of never having a migraine myself, and I have.  And with this
recent bit, along with snide comments you have made to others about my
opinion on this subject, in which you referred to it as "crap", leads me
only to believe you are a "soured Trekkie": a fan that has gone beyond
simply pointing out YATIs and ROTBAs, and trying to come up with
possible explanations for them, and has turned into someone who decidedly
LOOKS, to far extremes, for any inconsistency, just to slam the show.
Because someone's opinion differs from yours does not mean that they are
malinformed, misinformed, or noninformed.  You are now arguing over time
travel, a theorhetical possiblity, and telling me that the theories I
subscribe to, which are no less valid as are yours, are "crap"...
I suggest you stand back and listen to yourself, and think about the
message behind Star Trek -- Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
That does not only apply to physical form, but to emotional make-up and
philosophical view-points.  Respect me for my views, as I respect you
for yours.  But continue to harass me by stating that I do not know what
I am talking about, and you will lose that respect.

... If you are unwilling to hear contradictory thought, you are
        unwilling to understand, or to learn, or grow, or even to live...

 -- Blue Wave/Opus v2.00 [NR]
 * Origin: <The InterMix Chamber> HST/DS/V32bis 713-589-0308 (1:106/500.0)